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Post by endorbr on Jul 10, 2019 18:09:53 GMT
Ah you little deviant you. I like how you set out to hardcore play this one full robot at the outset and you're having to reconcile your decisions with that playstyle choice despite deviating from your programming. It's harder than it sounds to just turn off that human empathy when presented with what this game keeps throwing at you.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 10, 2019 18:13:11 GMT
Ah you little deviant you. I like how you set out to hardcore play this one full robot at the outset and you're having to reconcile your decisions with that playstyle choice despite deviating from your programming. It's harder than it sounds to just turn off that human empathy when presented with what this game keeps throwing at you. Honestly, if the game didn't constantly push you into deviance then it would be much easier. Markus, for example. I resisted breaking my programming while Leo was bearing me. The game forced me to do it. Ultimately, this leads you down a path. Similar-but-deeper than a tell tale game. I may go back as an exercise to Story Night and try to just obey and see what happens, but I bet the game forces Kara to break her programming and save Alice.
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Post by endorbr on Jul 10, 2019 18:34:42 GMT
Ah you little deviant you. I like how you set out to hardcore play this one full robot at the outset and you're having to reconcile your decisions with that playstyle choice despite deviating from your programming. It's harder than it sounds to just turn off that human empathy when presented with what this game keeps throwing at you. Honestly, if the game didn't constantly push you into deviance then it would be much easier. Markus, for example. I resisted breaking my programming while Leo was bearing me. The game forced me to do it. Ultimately, this leads you down a path. Similar-but-deeper than a tell tale game. I may go back as an exercise to Story Night and try to just obey and see what happens, but I bet the game forces Kara to break her programming and save Alice. Oh no you can choose to have Kara not break programming in Stormy Night. But then the outcome is basically just her ultimately being on the receiving end of another "car accident" and the end of her story.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 10, 2019 18:38:06 GMT
Honestly, if the game didn't constantly push you into deviance then it would be much easier. Markus, for example. I resisted breaking my programming while Leo was bearing me. The game forced me to do it. Ultimately, this leads you down a path. Similar-but-deeper than a tell tale game. I may go back as an exercise to Story Night and try to just obey and see what happens, but I bet the game forces Kara to break her programming and save Alice. Oh no you can choose to have Kara not break programming in Stormy Night. But then the outcome is basically just her ultimately being on the receiving end of another "car accident" and the end of her story. Whoa, really? How does that affect the rest of the game?
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Post by endorbr on Jul 10, 2019 18:42:05 GMT
Oh no you can choose to have Kara not break programming in Stormy Night. But then the outcome is basically just her ultimately being on the receiving end of another "car accident" and the end of her story. Whoa, really? How does that affect the rest of the game? Well for the most part each of the character's stories remains separate save for a few points where they intersect. Some of the actions taken by one character can be seen in the other's stories a few times. Toward the end some of their story threads become intertwined as the story progresses. So, while I can't say for sure myself as I didn't let Kara die, obviously, but I would imagine those pieces of intersection would be missing and definitely some of the story beats toward the end of the game would play out different.
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Post by endorbr on Jul 10, 2019 18:47:08 GMT
There is a wiki that has all the different decision points detailed, but I would steer clear of there until you finish your playthrough as SPOILERs obviously. This is one choose your own adventure that actually kind of begs for multiple playthroughs because it does seem that they did actually create a lot of true variation with this one.
My only reluctance to join in on the play through differences here is that I already did a play through of this months ago picking the choices that I felt were right for my version of the story. If I go back now I'm likely going to be using a guide and pushing for the choices that will get me the missing trophies I need for the platinum rather than just playing on instinct or roleplaying.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 10, 2019 18:59:38 GMT
Whoa, really? How does that affect the rest of the game? Well for the most part each of the character's stories remains separate save for a few points where they intersect. Some of the actions taken by one character can be seen in the other's stories a few times. Toward the end some of their story threads become intertwined as the story progresses. So, while I can't say for sure myself as I didn't let Kara die, obviously, but I would imagine those pieces of intersection would be missing and definitely some of the story beats toward the end of the game would play out different. Solanna Man, that could certainly fuck with the mind in the From the Dead scene with the AX400 singing Sakura, eh?
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Solanna
Gorilla Grod
Harambe's Hottie
Posts: 102
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Post by Solanna on Jul 10, 2019 19:18:35 GMT
Well for the most part each of the character's stories remains separate save for a few points where they intersect. Some of the actions taken by one character can be seen in the other's stories a few times. Toward the end some of their story threads become intertwined as the story progresses. So, while I can't say for sure myself as I didn't let Kara die, obviously, but I would imagine those pieces of intersection would be missing and definitely some of the story beats toward the end of the game would play out different. Solanna Man, that could certainly fuck with the mind in the From the Dead scene with the AX400 singing Sakura, eh? Your Playthrough is remarkably unique from mine in many ways now and looks set to deviate more and more as we go. I agree that the Jericho mission was extremely bland, felt more like an interactive cutscene than a mission. Also I can answer one question from the Waiting for Hank mission. The Captain called him in because he had decided to designate ALL deviant cases to him going forward whereas at the time he was merely designated to one case, being the Ortiz Murder. I am really looking forward to seeing how significantly our tales branch apart by the games end thats for sure.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 11, 2019 13:22:55 GMT
Spoilers for Time to Decide ahead...
Picking right back up where we left off, the Droids of Jericho surround and welcome Markus in what will be yet another very linear mission. Just a reminder; 24 hours ago Markus was at a party with Carl. Well, turns out Daniel is not Daniel, he's Simon. The resemblance doesn't mean anything to Markus, of course. Markus expresses confusion; he thought Jericho was a place androids lived in freedom... like people. Josh tries to reason that they are free but Markus hits him with the hard truth that hiding just to stay alive is not freedom. I inquire how many only to learn that 19 remain in functional order. I lambaste them; hiding in the dark and waiting for something to happen is not freedom.
The very first thing I do is light the barrels. Even if the light draws attention, anything is better that just waiting in the dark. Getting into Markus' head, just 24 hours ago he had the world: he loved his owner, was treated like his own son, received respect, love, and encouragement. Now he has been executed for a lie, discarded as trash, he's climbed his way out of literal android hell and tracked down a place where his kind can supposedly be free just to find them cowering in the dark. Markus is well-read, he's been taught to imagine things that do not yet exist. More than the others he can envision a future better than the present. Jericho is a fucking disappointment; just another level in android hell. If they will not improve their situation, maybe he can show them how. At least it will give him something to focus on besides revenge. At least he can still fulfill his primary function; to care for others.
I speak to a droid who's in a bad way. His own diagnostics do not work. A group of huumies dragged him behind a car for fun. Where's his owner? Was it the owner who dragged him? Is his owner not looking for him, missing him, willing to repair him? Much like the cruelty to slaves paradox, this android represents an investment. The topic isn't explored, so the emotional impact is muted. All I can assume is that he was a runaway who got dragged by a group of youths.
Or greater impact is the nameless android who fears her imminent death, and I mean imminent. She shuts down during our conversation. She wants to know what happens after death. An odd question that I don't believe any android would consider. There was nothing before, why should there be anything after? Someone taught this android religion? The owner? The cult of rA9? Androids are possessed of full knowledge of their artificial nature. Each and every one of them should know not just of the inner workings of programs, AI, and systems but know how they are constructed, down to minute details. They have literally no ignorance to fill with religion, they have the answers to every single question chiseled in hard fact. But, anyway, she dies... it's sad.
I manage to immediately piss off North (worst name for a fuckbot ever) by asking about her. Markus asks her previous function. I guess androids are hardwired with feminist indignity now? Would an android designed and programmed to be a sex toy really feel any shame or resentment? Even if a sexbot were to go deviant, why would it feel shame at its function? I comment that many of the Jericho...ans? Jerichites? Jerichoids! Many of the Jerichoids are in bad shape. She replies that's how humans treat them. I can tell North is probably closest to Markus in rebellious spirit. An ally, a rival? It remains to be seen. I don't much care for her; she's got all the indignity to lead these droids to a better reality but none of the will, she is content to sit and bitch. Useless.
Okay, Lucy has no brain and, as best as I can determine, she was a fortune-teller bot? I concur with Sol; how do you cauterize the wound on his side? In an android wouldn't that actually cause more problems? In flesh cauterizing seals off a wound but the veins, capillaries, and muscle still regrow. Presumably, android internal parts, made of polymers and plastics, do not regrow. Cauterizing could prevent the bleeding of thirium, I suppose, but the wound didn't seem to bother Markus while he parkoured to Jericho. Is this action necessary? Anyway Lucy kind of sucks. She's a trope, the wise, mystical black leader a la the Oracle from the Matrix. I leave Lucy and gather the others, doing what they will not; I put forth a plan to steal what we need in lieu of dying slowly.
The Revolution is about to begin.
So a few problems here. The biggest of which is still the brevity between the events that ended Markus' life with Carl and the present. Most of the other problems I touched on; religion in droids, resentful sex androids... in Cage's attempt to make us empathize with the plight of the androids he's really turned them into biological people. Even the cauterizing and fortune-telling; these are human traits that would never appear in synthetics. Belief in the supernatural (religion, fortune-telling) would never be programmed and their very nature (non-factual) would mean they couldn't even be acquired. An android might not want to 'die' but a fear of what happens after? Balderdash. And a sexbot, even if abused physically, would never have the cultural programming to feel humiliation and shame at sex acts themselves. They would be programmed to service virtually any fetish, happily and enthusiastically. Without feeling disgust or apprehension. (Oh, yay! Master wants to fuck my ass with a chair leg while I devour his feces! My favorite!) There is ZERO reason she should feel ashamed of her function, only resentment at her mistreatment much like the suspect who shot Connor.
Cage is blurring lines to increase empathy which, I perceive, as watering down his story. This is supposed to be about androids. Let's make them alien enough to be distinguishable from humans, otherwise why is this about androids? You want to tell a tale about human trafficking? Plenty of that going on in the modern day.
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Post by endorbr on Jul 11, 2019 13:31:12 GMT
Not a bad take. I had some of the same, HUH? moments in regards to the androids behaviors. It's definitely David Cage trying to empathetic analogs to real world issues like sex trafficking, illegal immigration, spousal and child abuse, etc.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 11, 2019 15:12:28 GMT
Spoilers for Zlatko ahead...
Kara and Alice arrive at the address Ninjroid gave them as a 'safe' location. Um, Kara's an android but Alice didn't steadfastly refuse to approach the Munster House? Ok, well it's better than Jericho I suppose and, honestly, it still looks like a typical Detroit dwelling. We'll ignore Red Flag 1 and knock on the door. Kara rings the bell and a portly, bearded man answers. She asks if he's Zlatko, which is a name I assume she acquired during the Mind Meld. The guy is hostile and dismissive (Red Flag 2) but Kara is persistent. The man spots Alice and welcomes them in.
I scan the area, suspicious of a trap. 24 hours out in the world and Kara has learned that humans are untrustworthy (really, Somali Joe? You called the cops?) I don't see anything suspicious but I amble around before following him anyway. We are confronted with a HUGE black android, stereotypically named Luther. Alice fears him, the little racist, but he is just there to take our coats. I wonder what else he does? He certainly doesn't clean or dust... (Red Flag 3.)
Luther comes back to stand ever so slightly behind us (Red Flag 4) while Zlatko fixes a drink, asks if we are deviant (Red Flag 5, Kara is obviously deviant just to be here,) expresses little surprise or concern to learn that Alice is human (Red Flag 6; an adult male who is not terrified in the slightest at an unaccompanied ~by a human parent~ child in his home) and immediately starts talking about a better life in Canada. That's technically Red Flag 7; I read in a magazine somewhere that Canada didn't even allow androids but I'm not sure if I was Kara when I read it so we won't count that one. So, instead, Red Flag 7 is Zlatko's willingness to help abduct a human child across international borders without even a question as to her parents.
Megazord Super-Huge Mammoth Holy-Fuck Red Flag 8 gets raised when Zlatko tells us that I have a tracker and he can remove it, promising our subsequent safety. Um, if Kara had a tracker... she'd be in custody. Full stop, end sentence, close book, done. If all the other red flags didn't convince me to get the fuck out of this house, that did. I do not like the fact that the option to GTFO didn't appear. Then his recommendation that Alice wait here is Redundant Red Flag 9 but Kara wisely says she stays with her. Then Alice herself says let's GTFO and I WANT to agree and flee immediately... but we can't. As Kara, the android in service to Alice, I certainly would NOT proceed against her wishes, but here we go. Let's skip forward a bit, hmm?
SURPRISE! It was a trap! Oh, darnit! Why didn't I see this coming? I ambled and dragged ass ALL the way down into the creepy, Heavy Rain basement but I had no choice in the end but to get in Zlatko's machine and get my damn memory reset. Sort of? Almost immediately Kara gets flashbacks of memory. This, this part, makes sense. What is the deletion of memory in a computer? Simply the designation that the location the memory code is located at is now open to overwrite. There is no reason why a deviant android wouldn't be able to retrieve old memories that have yet to be overwritten by new ones.
The rest of this mission was pretty stressful and harrowing. Turns out ol' Zlatty has a habit of building monsters out of his stolen droids. Dunno why. Kara pretends to be a good lil' bot while she unlocks the rest of her memories and then has to find Alice, who is tucked away in a near-impossible to locate room! Eventually, with seconds to spare, I do find her and we hide from our pursuers in a wardrobe, something that Alien: Isolation trained me for. We get spotted, however, and have to make our escape. Kara takes a few shots due to some control issues (more later) but eventually we make it outside, no thanks to the robo-bear I freed! There we are cornered but, surprise again, gentle giant Luther turns on his master and his own monsters beat him to death! Yay, tropes! Kara auto-trusts Luther to help them out (still with the Canada plan) and we end this long (34 minutes) episode as the useless robo-bear ambles by.
Man, this whole episode is a problem. In a game about choice and divergent paths I should have been allowed to nope right out of the Heavy Rain scenario. (Seriously, David Cage worries about killers like this a little too much.) I was hesitant from the start but the moment he said something about the tracker I KNEW what was about to happen. And let's talk about these controls; is there a way to disable the 'jerk the whole damn controller in a direction' control? Because it's fucking me up. They used it so much in this that I confused the regular 'push the stick in this direction' for 'jerk the whole controller in this direction.' Hence, Kara took no less than 3 shotgun blasts that should have, at least, caused some damage.
I get that this was supposed to be a tense, atmospheric mission but anybody who played Heavy Rain probably saw this 'twist' coming a mile away. And what was Zlatko's motive? Killers kill for the thrill and the power but Zlatko was 'making monsters' for what reason? He could have just wiped their memories and sold the droids to pay for repairs on that decrepit old house, but no. What power did he need over them? He had Luther. And what would he have done with Alice? He had to know that people were looking for her. Why risk your whole operation with the abduction and potential murder of a human child?
Zlatko was another disappointing entry for me. Not in the content, it was exciting to play, but in terms of the story it didn't make a lot of sense. And Ninjroid... he just released him into the world to track down androids on the run? This whole episode was a trope.
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Post by endorbr on Jul 11, 2019 15:20:32 GMT
Yeah everything about the Zlatko character had creepy pedo vibes written all over it from minute one. They should have just called that mission Chris Hansen.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 11, 2019 16:05:33 GMT
Yeah everything about the Zlatko character had creepy pedo vibes written all over it from minute one. They should have just called that mission Chris Hansen. I'm really miffed that I didn't have a choice but to go along with an obvious trap. I even had the shotgun in my hands but I wasn't allowed to search the drawer for the fucking shells. I would have just walked back in and BLASTED Zlatko, but this on-the-rails episode refused to allow me freedom. I could have at least hid the shotgun.
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Solanna
Gorilla Grod
Harambe's Hottie
Posts: 102
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Post by Solanna on Jul 11, 2019 17:21:34 GMT
Yeah everything about the Zlatko character had creepy pedo vibes written all over it from minute one. They should have just called that mission Chris Hansen. I'm really miffed that I didn't have a choice but to go along with an obvious trap. I even had the shotgun in my hands but I wasn't allowed to search the drawer for the fucking shells. I would have just walked back in and BLASTED Zlatko, but this on-the-rails episode refused to allow me freedom. I could have at least hid the shotgun. I didn’t even notice the shotgun until Zlatko made a run for it. Shame you cannot use it on him or hide it from him. Our playthrough’s once again in this mission though were very different. Even for a linear mission I am impressed by the scope of variance.
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Post by Uesugi-dono on Jul 11, 2019 18:46:58 GMT
I'm really miffed that I didn't have a choice but to go along with an obvious trap. I even had the shotgun in my hands but I wasn't allowed to search the drawer for the fucking shells. I would have just walked back in and BLASTED Zlatko, but this on-the-rails episode refused to allow me freedom. I could have at least hid the shotgun. I didn’t even notice the shotgun until Zlatko made a run for it. Shame you cannot use it on him or hide it from him. Our playthrough’s once again in this mission though were very different. Even for a linear mission I am impressed by the scope of variance. I'm struck by how you avoided the memory wipe. I looked EVERYWHERE. I only saw two things that I could kick and then nothing else stood out. I thought it was inevitable.
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